ინტერვიუ შვეიცარელ ფსიქოთერაპევტთან, ალან გუგენბულთან (საქართველოს ფსიქიატრიის მოამბე #7)

interviu Sveicarel fsiqoTerapevtTan, alan gugenbulTan

interviu aiRo giorgi geleiSvilma

 batono gugenbul, gTxovT, msmenels warudginoT Tqveni Tavi.

me var alan gugenbuli, fsiqologi, fsiqoTerapevti,  SveicariaSi erTis mxriv maqvs fsiqoTerapiuli praqtika “konfliqtebis mogvarebis institutSi”, meores mxriv me var profesori ciurixis universitetSi, esaa Cemi ZiriTadi saqmianoba.

 ramdenadac vici, Tqven gaqvT ganaTleba analitikur fsiqologiaSi da   

 aseve Tqven ojaxs fesvebi aqvs fsiqologiis am konkretul dargSi.

marTalia, me var analitikuri fsiqologi. amave dros me, SeiZleba iTqvas,  fsiqoanalitikur niadagze gavizarde. mamaCemi piradad icnobda iungs. Cemi bebiis da froidTan gadioda analizs. me vizrdebodi fsiqoanaliziT ganmsWvalul garemocvaSi.

 TqvenTvis Zalian saintereso unda yofiliyo aseTi garemocva.

Znelia amis Tqma. zogierTi fiqri, cxovrebis xedvis zogierTi aspeqti CemSi am garemocvis damsaxurebaa da organulad maqvs Sesisxlxorcebuli, Rrmadaa CemSi CabeWdili. zogjer miWirs imis garkveva ra viswavle SemdgomSi da ra momeca me bavSvobidan, im wreSi cxovrebis gamo.

 Tu SeiZleba, rom vilaparakoT “aCrdilze” analitikuri fsiqologiis  

 TvalTaxedviT. Tqveni muSaobisas Tu gixdebaT am sakiTxTan Sexeba?

me konfliqtebze vmuSaob, romelic cxovrebis sxvadasxva realobaSi vlindeba. es konfliqtebi adamianebs Soris xdeba skolebSi, sazogadoebis TavSeyris adgilebSi, transportSi. me vmuSaob rogorc dawesebulebebTan, aseve individebTan. am dros Cveulebriv aSkaraa, rom adamianebs kargi ganzraxvebi aqvT nebismieri saqmianobis dros, romelsac isini akeTeben. roca isini urTierTobas iwyeben, am dros urTierTobaSi daZabulobas ar gegmaven, iseve rogorc magaliTad kompaniis marTvisas surT, rom am kompaniisTvis kargi gaakeTon, magram uecrad konfliqti Cndeba, azrebs Soris gansxvaveba daZabulobas iwvevs. am dros vibneviT xolme. aseT dros mniSvnelovania aCrdilis koncefciis codna. Cven gvaqvs motivebi, vnebebi, fantaziebi, romelic Cven cnobier warmodgenebs ewinaaRmdegeba. maTi miReba CvenTvis dauSvebelia, radgan isini xels SegviSlis, Cven cnobier dayenebebs SeewinaaRmdegeba. swored amas davarqmevdi aCrdils. aCrdili moicavs miswrafebebs, arqetipebs, warmodgenebs, ocnebebs, romlebic miuRebelia Cveni cnobieri normebisa da RirebulebebisTvis. isini udides gavlenas axdens Cveni cxovrebis bevr aspeqtze, ise rom amas verc ki vacnobierebT.

 Tqven bavSvebTan da mozardebTan muSaobT?

me sxvadasxva sferoSi vmuSaob. me vaswavli xalxs konfliqtebis menejments. amave dros bavSvebTan  da mozardebTan vmuSaob, romelTac sasamarTlo agzavnis qurdobis an delinqventuri qcevis gamo. roca aseTi mozardebi CvenTan modian, maT miaCniaT, rom sruliad udanaSauloni arian, Tavs msxverplad warmoaCenen. TiTqos viRacam maT provocireba gaukeTa an isini iZulebulni iyvnen TavianTi ojaxi daecvaT da a.S. es Cveulebrivi axsnebia, romelic maT aqvT xolme. am dros Cven vxvdebiT, rom maT ar aqvT kavSiri maTSi arsebul meore mxaresTan, agresiulobasTan, sisastikesTan, erTi sityviT yvelafer imasTan rac aCrdilis nawilia.

 ase rom tradiciuli warmodgena, rom bavSvi umanko arsebaa mTlad swori

 araa?

diax. es dasavleT samyarosa da SeerTebul StatebSi sayovelTaod gavrcelebuli araswori warmodgenaa, rom bavSvi umanko da wminda arsebaa, romelic unda davicvaT skolis, ganaTlebis meSveobiT. sinamdvileSi Tavidanve bavSvSi aris yvela is tendencia, romlis warmodgenac ki SesaZlebelia. rogorc dispozicia is iq aris. ase rom bavSvebi didebze naklebad sastikebi an naklebad cudebi ar arian. umanko bavSvis xati sakmaod saSiSia, igi bavSvebis mimarT Zaladobas gavs. TiTqos bavSvebi fsiqologiurad koreqtulad unda gamoiyurebodnen da Sedegad Cven ver vxedavT maT Crdilovan, cud, problemur mxares. Sedegad Cven ver viqnebiT adeqvaturebi maT mimarT, calmxrivebi viqnebiT da es saSiSia. xSirad roca bavSvi cudad iqceva yvela ise reagirebs TiTqos arc araferi momxdara. erT magaliTs mogiyvanT. erTxel Cem megobars erTi adamiani patara qaliSvilTan erTad ewvia. patara gogo Zalian sayvareli iyo da yvela eubneboda “o, rogori tkbili da kargi xar”. bavSvi midioda stumrebTan da cxvirs xeliT ugrixavda. me vifiqre, rom es sakmaod sastiki saqcieli iyo, bavSvi sadizmiT siamovnebas iRebda. miuxedavad amisa yvela ambobda “ra sayvarelia”. da es xSirad xdeba, roca bavSvis meore mxares ver vamCnevT.  

 Tqveni azriT ra adgili SeiZleba hqondes aCrdils Cven cxovrebaSi?

mniSvnelovania imis codna, rom aCrdili mxolod uaryofiTi araa. iungis TvalsazrisiT aCrdili yvela im aspeqts moicavs, romelic sazogadoebis mier araa dafasebuli da pativiscemas ar imsaxurebs. Sesabamisad maT Soris zogjer kargi rameebic xvdeba. laTinur amerikul sazogadoebebSi triqsteris figura, magaliTad, Zalian dafasebulia. Tu Sen eSmaki xar da moxerxebuli es kargi ramaa. triqsteris aCrdili, ra Tqma unda diqtatoria, romelic kanonis dacvas Zalian mkacrad iTxovs. CvenTan SveicariaSi magaliTad, simarTle, kanonmorCileba, wesrigi ufro fasobs xolo triqsteris figura aCrdilis nawilia.

 SegiZliaT moiyvanoT SemTxveva, roca aCrdili integrirebul iqna da amas

 pirovnebisTvis aSkara sargebeli axlda Tan?

saintereso kiTxvaa. unda davfiqrde amis Sesaxeb. Cveulebriv SegiZlia iTamaSo amiT, sxvadasxva rolebi gqondes, sxvadasxva pasuxismgeblobebi. zogjer aCrdilis integrireba imaSi gamoixateba, rom erT adamianSi TiTqos sxvadasxva pirovnebebia. adamiani, romelic kompanias xelmZRvanelobs TiTqos mamis mzrunveli figuraa, igi pasuxismgebelia yvela mkacr wesze. Semdeg igive pirovneba mTavari aRmasrulebeli oficris funqcias asrulebs da amjerad ukve rogorc triqsteri ise gvevlineba. TiTqos pirovneba gunds gavs, romlis sxvadasxva Semadgeneli nawilebi gansxvavebul funqciebs atarebs – erTi Zalian mowesrigebulia, sxva dedis figuras gavs da a.S. Tu es idealur gunds emsgavseba, maSin aCrdili metnaklebad integrirebulia. sxvanairad aCrdilis integrireba Zalian Znelia, radgan Cven mas sul gavdevniT.

 magram xom SeiZleba misi gacnobiereba, seriozulad miReba?

seriozulad Tu miviRebT aucileblad siZulvili gveqneba mis mimarT. ai magaliTs mogiyvanT. me myavs kolega, mecnierebaTa doqtori, Zalian kargi profesionali, romelic iqceva rogorc seriozuli adamiani. da ai es qali erTxel wveulebaze movida naxevrad meZaviviT Cacmuli. Zalian seqsualuri iyo. yvelasTan keklucobda. im saRamos ise gamomwvevad iqceoda, rom amas manamde verc ki warmovidgendi. da rogor gindaT amis integrireba? es ubralod im adamianis meore mxarea. im situaciaSi am mxares saSualeba mieca Tavi gamoevlina, magram sxvagan igi isev gandevnil iqneboda.

 Tqven saqarTveloSi meored xarT. SegiZliaT TqvaT, ra aris Cveni aCrdili?

es Zalian rTuli kiTxvaa. amitom rasac getyviT es ufro Cemi intuitiuri wvdoma iqneba da ara guldasmiT Seswavlis Sedegi. erTis mxriv saqarTveloSi adamianebi Zalian megobrulebi arian da adamianuri urTierTobebi aq bevrs niSnavs. magaliTad taqsis mZRols imdens uxdi ramdensac ginda, restoranSi Zalian Tavazianebi arian. aseTi urTierTobebi, ra Tqma unda, dadebiTi mxarea. rac Seexeba aCrdils, Cemi azriT igi araloialobasTanaa kavSirSi. roca adamiani raRac miRebul wess arRvevs, mis mimarT Seuwynarebloba iqneba. SveicariaSi Tu imdens ar gadaixdi ramdenic saWiroa maSinve migiTiTeben amaze. aq ki getyvian – arauSavs, araferia – da mere uceb reaqcia sadRac amoxeTqavs. Cemi warmodgeniT Tqven qveyanaSi aCrdili Zlieri brazia imaze, rom araswored mogeqcnen an araswori damokidebuleba qondaT Tqven mimarT. Tumca es Cemi varaudia.

 imedi maqvs sxva vizitebic geqnebaT saqarTveloSi da Cvenze albaT mets

 gaigebT.

es brazi da Seuwynarebloba megobruli damokidebulebis meore mxarea. roca italiaSi midixar yvelaferi maSinve biznesad iqceva. yvela Zalian megobrulia, magram yovelTvis unda gadaixado. saqarTveloSi ki megobrulebi arian da arc ki gaxdevineben amis gamo. es aris namdvili megobruloba. Tumca igi gvafiqrebinebs, rom amas meore, sawinaaRmdego mxarec SeiZleba qondes.

 rogor fiqrobT, ra SeiZleba movuxerxoT am Cven aCrdils?

Cemi azriT saqarTvelo Zalian saintereso situaciaSia mTeli rigi mizezebis gamo. qveyana pataraa da roca es asea SegiZlia individualuri fsiqologia, individualuri Tvisebebi ganaviTaro. roca adamianebs Soris raRac sayovelTao TanxmobiT keTdeba es ufro swrafad iwvevs cvlilebebs vidre es Zalian mowesrigebul sazogadoebaSi SeiZleba warmovidginoT. aq improvizaciis, gamogonebis meti saSualebaa. es Zalaa, romelic Tqven qveyanas gaaCnia, SesaZleblobebia da amaze meti unda ifiqroT.

 batono gugenbul, Tqven aq CamoxvediT raTa proeqti “nergi”

 ganaxorcieloT. proeqts qarTuli saxeli aqvs. SegiZliaT oriod sityviT  

 gviTxraT am proeqtis Sesaxeb? ras exeba igi?

proeqti exeba jgufuri fsiqoTerapiis erT meTods, romelsac “miTodramas” veZaxiT. Cven am meTodis saqarTveloSi danergva gvsurs. Cem kolegas, romelic CemTan erTad SveicariaSi muSaobs, gauCnda azri, rom es meTodi, romelsac Cven SveicariaSi viyenebT saqarTveloSic dagvenerga.

es aris jgufur Terapiuli midgoma, romelSic Cven garkveul moTxrobebs da TamaSebs viyenebT da romelic sakmaod efeqturi gamodga bavSvebTan da mozardebTan muSaobisas. exla am meTodis danergva saqarTveloSi gvinda raTa dazaralebul da iZulebiT gadaadgilebul, agreTve rTuli ojaxebidan bavSvebsa da mozardebs davexmaroT. amisTvis Cven vamzadebT fsiqoTerapevtebs, romlebic am meTodis gamoyenebas SeZleben.

ratom airCieT saqarTvelo?

me avirCie saqarTvelo imitom, rom Cemi megobari da kolega, romelic CemTan erTad bernSi muSaobs saqarTvelodanaa. igi Sveicarelzea gaTxovili. es proeqti misi iniciativa iyo. igi CemTan movida da miTxra – ratom ar unda gavakeToT es saqme saqarTveloSi? mkiTxa Tu miviRebdi amaSi monawileobas da mec davTanxmdi. amdenad es proeqti qarTvelis mieraa iniciirebuli.

anu Cven lela qsovrelaSvil-Smids unda vumadlodeT?

diax, swored misi wamowyebaa es saqme.

rogoria Tqveni STabeWdilebebi? fsiqodrama imuSavebs aq?

me Zalian kargi STabeWdilebebi maqvs. Cemze STabeWdileba moaxdina enTuziazmma, profesionalizmma, saqmis mimarT monawileTa seriozulma damokidebulebam. amitom mTel proeqts Zalian optimisturad vuyureb.

didi madloba interviusTvis.